Conversation between Professor Ryoji Noyori and Hayao Kawai,

发布时间：2019-04-06 16:39:58 来源：admin

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www.nmgpsy.com内蒙古心理网Special New Year's Conversation between Professor Ryoji Noyori, President of RIKEN, and Professor , Commissioner of the Agency for Cultural Affairs

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Aiming to make RIKEN a greater contributor to culture

Noyori:As Japan's sole core institute for comprehensive research in science and technology, RIKEN carries out excellent world-class research. To make sure that RIKEN continues to excel, we asked for the advice of Professor Hayao Kawai, a highly distinguished man for whom I have the greatest respect. After becoming President, I announced five guidelines (the Noyori Initiative^*) that would serve as a management policy. The fifth guideline is to make a "RIKEN that contributes to culture". Improving the level of culture at RIKEN will lead to even more first-rate science, and as I consider science to be an important element of culture I want RIKEN's activities to contribute to the culture of Japan.

Kawai:Science does fall under culture in the broad sense of the word, but in fact science has become far too strong. This definitely has to change. Another problem is that people with an arts background know absolutely nothing about science. Because they know nothing they have prejudices. Many people seem to think that scientists spend all their time talking in jargon about obscure ideas, and that science is completely divorced from any sense of the aesthetic. When Japan was pursuing science in order to catch up with and surpass the West, it might not have been necessary to think too much about cultural matters, but as we move past this, the level will completely change.

Noyori:As a natural scientist, I believe there are four main elements within culture. There is science, then logic, the third is sensibility (joucho), and lastly language. When these four come together they give birth to a variety of different cultures. All four are closely connected, and to produce good science, logic, or should I say intellect, must be given its proper place. Sensibility and language are also extraordinarily important.

Kawai:The most clear-cut language of all is the language of numerical formulas. Our everyday language is sometimes vague, and science does its best to eliminate that. Science is good at explaining things that have happened, and formulas are useful for describing things, but in order to discover new things we have to enter the realm of ambiguity.

Noyori:Scientific thinking involves various elements of culture. Intellect and logic are especially emphasized, but I think sensibility also has a large role.

Kawai:In a broad sense, scientific thinking is like aesthetic sense, and even the definition of beauty has changed dramatically. Look at music. There are certain chords that were never used in the past but are now common. Nowadays these chords are thought to be harmonious, but in the old days people rejected them. Science is also a kind of harmonic system in which the level and the quality of the harmony changes over time. In this regard, I think science and music are very similar.

Noyori:Of course intellect and sensitivity, and also technique, must be cultivated from childhood. In the Japanese education system science students and arts students are separated at a relatively young age, and I believe that this is the road to ruin for our country.

Kawai:I too am strongly opposed to that. It is ridiculous to divide students into sciences and arts at high school age.
Encouragement, respect, morale

Noyori:I've never been one for fun and games, so, since work is my only talent, I've spent my life teaching and doing research at universities.

Kawai:Well, the work of a teacher, in the old-fashioned sense, is very close to amusement. You don't make any money out of it but you get to do what you enjoy.(Laughs)

Noyori:That's right.(Laughs.)At both research institutes and universities, it is essential to train people through research activities and avoid wearing them down. But at institutes these days staff have to spend their time on tiring things like evaluations and applications for funding. It is the same for the administrative staff. I think we need to raise the overall level of culture at research institutes to boost the morale of the staff. Otherwise we will all go downhill.

Kawai:I agree. I thought I'd try something interesting, seeing as I was at the Agency of Cultural Affairs, so I invited Mrs. Akiko Baba to our offices, and we got everyone to join in a linked verse (renga) session. Someone would say a poem with three lines of five, seven and five syllables, and you had to respond with two lines of seven syllables. We got Mrs. Baba to coach us, and it turned out to be quite fun. Making linked verse is not a matter of logic. But you can't go in a completely different direction. You can't stick too closely to the previous verse, either. You have to make new lines with an appropriate distance from the previous ones. Another time we held a drama workshop. Maybe you ought to give these kinds of things a try.

Noyori:That's very good advice. If we include lots of cultural elements in our everyday lives then it will help personal relations with other people and generate mutual respect. I think this would raise the morale of everyone at RIKEN.
First-rate science is easy to understand

Noyori:RIKEN's third president, Masatoshi Okochi, was quite a man of culture. He gave RIKEN its current spirit, and promoted basic science. He set up the Y. Nishina Laboratory, which later produced two Nobel laureates, Hideki Yukawa and Shin-ichiro Tomonaga. He also tried to share the knowledge achieved through basic science with the general public, by setting up about 60 companies as part of the "RIKEN Konzern". Okochi was like Rosanjin [one of Japan's most important 20th-century ceramicists, talented in pottery, calligraphy and painting, and well known as a gourmet]. He was good at cooking, pottery, painting and hunting. I believe we need to use the lessons Okochi taught us to equip RIKEN for the new century. Scientists used to pursue a wide range of interests. Yukawa and Tomonaga were also very cultured men, and Torahiko Terada [a physicist well known for his literary essays] was associated with RIKEN. We need people like this.

I think we have to verify the justifications for science and technology once again. To do this, science has to be assessed in a way that includes not only scientists but people from the humanities as well. I think culture covers both of these groups.

Kawai:But finding a way to make non-specialists, especially people from the humanities, understand cutting-edge science is an extremely difficult challenge.

Noyori:Technology is relatively easy to understand, because people can examine its social utility. Educating the general public about basic science is perhaps our most important task. The universe was created in the Big Bang 13.7 billion years ago, the Earth was formed 4.6 billion years ago, life started 3.6 billion years ago, and since then various life forms have evolved. In other words we study where man came from, where he is now, and where he will go in the future. This is the most important thing.

Kawai:Maybe it is strange to do cultural activities without knowing those kinds of things. There is a Zen koan that goes "Two hands make a sound when they clap. What is the sound of one hand clapping?" That is all well and good, but as a religious person in the modern age I once asked for example, "What is the 'sound' of Chernobyl?"

Noyori:We must not hide away in our ivory towers. It is essential that we explain the significance of what we are doing to the public in ways that they can understand.

Kawai:But scientists are engrossed in their experiments and theories, and don't seem to be able to do other things.

Noyori:What the scientific community needs is something like a "spokes-team" of senior scientists. One person cannot do everything on their own, so the scientific community as a whole has to take on the responsibility.

Kawai:That is probably the best way. Otherwise individuals will have to do everything, and that will definitely not work.

Noyori:Knowing the facts, the truth, about the universe and nature is crucially important, and if we convey them skillfully then people are sure to find it interesting. I think this would have a huge impact on society. After all, first-rate science is easy to understand.
The scientific mind-set of the future: East and West

Noyori:Looking ahead to the science of the future, another significant point is the difference between Western science and Japanese or Eastern science. I would say that the two differ in their logic and their ethics.

Kawai:That's right. But the Western way of thinking connects more easily with science, which was born in the West. Doing science with the Eastern way of thinking is twice as hard.

Noyori:Western thought has always been reductionist, but in the East we think more about the whole. Twenty-first century science is moving away from an analytical approach and towards synthesis or generalization. In areas which require flexibility, scientists from the East and Japan will probably play a major role.

Kawai:If we are not careful in Japan we label people as outstanding simply because they reflexively follow the West. Some people have quickly reached the rank of professor mainly by abandoning Eastern thinking. When this happens, junior people get in trouble if they come up with interesting ideas. Leaders have to be aware of this hazard. You have to acknowledge and encourage people who do or say things that are very different from your own ideas. Ideas that have only just been suggested have many drawbacks, and so if you try to criticize them it is easy to do so.

Noyori:Yes, that's right. People who come up with original ideas are always the minority at that time.

Kawai:You need to have the generosity to hold off and allow more time for assessing these ideas.

Noyori:Another problem is that assessments are made in such a uniform way.

Kawai:Yes, it's frightening. Some people say that it is easier to assess matters in the sciences than in the arts or humanities, but it's not that simple. Ideas need to be examined from different perspectives and over a long period of time. The tendency in the West is to trust the person making a claim, and wait and see what happens. Japanese people immediately regard claims as subjective, but that is a subjectivity that has been refined by experience.

Naturally the larger a task, the lower the success rate of individuals. Hiring ten people and them all doing good work only happens with small projects. Hiring ten people and only one of them doing good work leads to greater achievements. Japan must keep this in mind, and not focus exclusively on so-called objective assessments. Japan's tradition of science is short, so Japanese tend not to rely on particular individuals but instead to hire people who on average do not fail. But even if the average mark is low, all it takes is one person with a score of 120 to achieve a success. A lot more thought needs to be given to this.

Noyori:Yes, relying on individuals. What would you say are the characteristics and the weak points of people in the East?

Kawai:I've often said that in my experience people in the East look more at the whole. A cognitive psychologist in the US once did some experiments and concluded that the West and the East have fundamentally different ways of cognition. For example, he showed test subjects an animated scene of a fish swimming around in a fishbowl for a few minutes. When they were asked what they had seen, the subjects from Japan, South Korea and China all started by describing the overall scene. But the American subjects began their descriptions by saying that there was a large fish moving from the center to the right. This is a clear difference that was shown by the data. Another example was an economic development curve. The subjects were asked to predict the fourth year results after three consecutive years of an upward trend. The ones of Anglo-Saxon descent predicted a continuing climb, but everyone from the East predicted a decline.

Noyori:Do you think this has anything to do with cyclicity or the Buddhist cycle of reincarnation?

Kawai:Yes, I do. Eastern thought is fundamentally cyclical, while Western thought is linear.

Noyori:Ah, the linear model. The West uses a linear model, while the East uses a cyclic model.

Kawai:Science traces its beginnings to the linear model. Is science based on a cyclic model possible? That is a very important question.

Noyori:In the future science and technology must move from a linear model to a cyclic model. As this happens I hope that Japanese and Eastern people will be able to put their distinctive characteristics to use.

Kawai:When that time comes, the Japanese will not be very sophisticated in their use of the cyclic approach, and they might simply resort to being vague. They might even become illogical. Naturally we have to use words that make sense to non-Japanese. How is the cyclic approach different from the linear model that Westerners talk about, and why is it different? We will have to explain these things clearly. However, Japanese scientists have dedicated themselves to catching up with and surpassing the West, and they have done their best to cast aside the cyclic model. It could turn out that Japanese academics are more set in their ways, more Western than the West. So if Japan is to play a larger role globally, it must not throw away its traditional legacy but instead make use of it in pursuit of science. I feel this will become a major issue from here on.

Noyori:I am sure that young researchers in Japan will be encouraged to hear that from you. On another topic, people say that the Japanese are given to being technically proficient but not conceptual. What do you think about this?

Kawai:The idea of a firm conceptual foundation is probably a Western one to begin with. Japanese are very bad at creating abstract concepts, but very capable when it comes to practical matters. Sensitivity to nature (mono-no-aware) is typically Japanese, but that is not really a concept. Things that cannot be conceptualized are understood by everyone through physical experience. This isn't a bad thing. It means living in reality.

Noyori:It's also said that Japanese people are inductive, and lacking in powers of deduction.

Kawai:We need to begin thinking of science and technology in a way that incorporates things that used to be viewed as obstacles. This is the direction in which we ought to move.

Objects, things, minds, people

Noyori:Japan is said to be particularly good at "making objects", and the Japanese are highly resourceful and skilled in making objects when presented with a specific objective. However, the future is about "making things", in other words making new things happen. We have to think about what needs to be produced for the future, while putting to good use Japan's distinct aptitude for making objects. For this, concepts will become accordingly more significant.

Kawai:Japan has never distinguished between object (mono) and mind (kokoro). A story is not just a talk about objects; it also includes the author's mind. Object and mind are inseparable. Producing an object is the same as training your mind. A Westerner's thought might go to how much he can get for making products according to specifications, but the impressive aspect of the Japanese way of making objects is that it entails putting your heart into it. In fact this is why in the future Japanese will have to train very hard to let go of this mind-set when they develop concepts.

Noyori:This leads into the issue of whether scientific research in Japan, including technological research, should be done only by Japanese people, or whether researchers from around the world should be gathered here. Science has no nationality, so it seeks to create knowledge that contributes to human society as a whole. In this context, I think that Japan can make the greatest contributions internationally if we take advantage of the unique Japanese way of thinking. Technology is at the root of international competitiveness, and so it is pursued for the national interest. The Japanese should focus on what they are good at, and bring in people from outside to make up for the weaknesses.

Kawai:And the involvement of people from other countries can help us better understand where those weaknesses lie. We must always welcome into the community people who have different ways of thinking and different ideas.

Noyori:For example, in IT, Japan is extremely strong in hardware but very weak when it comes to developing software. On the other hand, India, which is the country that discovered zero, is strong in conceptual and mathematical areas. So we will need to invite people who are strong on concepts to come to Japan and work alongside Japanese people on the Japanese way of making things.

Kawai:I agree. I think we should also study why the Indians are so strong in those areas. In India only a tiny proportion of the population does this. The rest live unhurried lives that flow along at the same speed as the Ganges. Only a very few stand out. I am not sure if this is good or bad.

Noyori:Since its foundation the United States has been gathering people from all over the world, and combining their efforts and skills very successfully. Japan will definitely have to think about how to develop its human resources and how to cooperate best with the rest of the world.

Kawai:This is quite a challenge. People will play an increasingly important role. We need to be bold and send young Japanese people abroad more, not just for short trips but for a reasonable time before they come back.
Aiming to make RIKEN a greater contributor to society

Noyori:Now I would like to ask you what we can do to contribute culturally to society in general. As you said a moment ago, one way is for us to inform the public about the results we achieve in natural science.

Kawai:That would be a huge step. Children also should be shown just how interesting science can be. Japan's elementary school education thus far has been successful in cramming knowledge into children's heads, but it has not done much to get them to ponder new ideas, to inspire them, or to have them grasp the true nature of things. I would like junior high and high school teachers to give classes that make the students say, "I see,that'show it is!"

Noyori:Yes, I would certainly like us to do that too. I would also like to ask your kind assistance in improving the level of culture at RIKEN. Whether it be art, music, or literature, incorporating cultural elements will give RIKEN the power it needs to move forward, and I would be grateful for your help. In the future we are hoping to strengthen our exchanges with artistic and literary organizations.

Kawai:If there is anything that we can do at the Agency for Cultural Affairs, we will be extremely glad to help. Perhaps if people from the humanities, especially prominent figures from those fields, were to visit RIKEN and similar institutions, they could meet with researchers, and not give lectures but have discussions, and a variety of ideas might come to light. This is something that I think we should consider, if possible.

Noyori:We also have many eminent scientists here, and visitors like that would be easy to understand. We would be extremely grateful for your advice and consideration again at another time. Thank you very much for your time and advice.

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