关于自我ego、自体selfe、和自性Self

发布时间：2019-04-06 16:39:55 来源：《心理科学进展》(京)2012年05期韩世辉，北京大学心理学

小中大

字号：

www.nmgpsy.com内蒙古心理网

^&Vdzmyv2V.R'{"z0关于自我、自体、和自性
)q2m$~JtR D*O0内蒙古心理网7OS4A)W0qn|2P i{

John Beebe 给所有人
You have to have a big neurosis to be a Jungian analyst!!!
It takes a long time to release释放、解除 the Self the complexes.
In the meantime, I lived my life and started my psychiatry practice, etc.
I lived my life while I was undergoing经历 analysis. I didn't wait for the analysis to "work" to live my life. But the analysis helped me keep my complexes from ruining毁灭 my life until my own connection to/understanding of the Self was able to do that for me。 What is it mean to have a complex "ruin one's life"?
For one thing, a complex usually means you are living someone else's life, you are not living your own.
A mother complex means you are living your life as if you were your mother, or some better or worse mother than your mother

A father complex means you are living your life as if you were your father, or some better or worse father than your father. A money complex means you are living for money. A power complex means you are living for power. An inferiority劣势的 complex means you are living as if you were less powerful and less effective than others.

Ping 给所有人
what about death complex，john？

John Beebe 给所有人
A suicidal自杀 complex means you are always trying to find a way to end your life Catherine asked a question, ego psychology and Kohut's self psychology, and the big Self in Jungian psychology. ego, self, Self
Freud talks about ego
talks about self
Jung talks about Self
3 different ways of experiencing our own personality
ego is when we experience ourselves as effective有效的 in defending 防护ourself against impulses冲动、推进 and against shame and guilt.
Ego is making good and wise executive decisions about the living of our lives.
Many psychoanalysts and some Jungian analysts actually believe the whole point of psychotherapy is to get a better ego.
Freud, where id was, there ego shall be.
Ego-psychologists talk about coping stragegies, healthy defenses.
So where does the little s self come in And where does the big S self in. correction to last sentence: And were does the big S self fit in?
Let's start with the little "s" self, which is the topic that Heinz Kohut has done the most important work on.

Huaiqi 给所有人
国内把科胡特的self翻译为

John Beebe 给所有人
We have to realize there are times when we seem to get our ego tasks任务 done, we go to work, we cook dinner, we eat dinner, we go to sleep, but if we have a good friend, we confide that "I'm not feeling like myself today."
In other words, the ego is fine, but some part of the self is missing. If that continues, the morale to continue functioning in the world starts to disappear, and even though we could do things, we don't want to.
We say, we're not motivated. Or we're too anxious. Or we're depressed. Actually, if our lives depended on it we could go on functioning at the ego level.
But part of us in a lot of trouble. That part is the little s self.
In regular psychoanalysis, meaning Freudian model模型 psychoanalysis, the ego is actually unconscious a great deal of the time, just like the heart and lungs. But the little s self is preconscious,前的 meaning it has feelings. It can feel well or unwell. When the self feels unwell, it also strange to watch the ego go right on functioning as if nothing were happening.
I had an example of this the first time I gave a psychological lecture that began with the showing of a film. The film was Alfred Hitchcock's "Notorious" and it took 2 hours to show. Then we had lunch, and after lunch I discussed the film for four hours. To the best of my knowledge, no Jungian analyst had ever done a seminar like this.
The year was 1981.
I was absolutely terrified. What if people thought I was crazy to analyze a film? What if I didn't know enough? What if I had the psychology wrong?
What if I got the details of the film wrong--I have a weak sensation function?
What if I discussed women's experience in a sexist, stupid way that would offend the women in my audience? Since no one had ever done this before, how could I know I was doing it right?
I had a terrible headache, and an awful sense that I was going to make a fool of myself.
Yet later, when I listened to the tape of what I said, it was the coolest, clearest, most confident sounding presentation possible! You would think I was an absolute expert at this way of teaching.
The ego was fine. It was only the self that wasn't okay. So what was wrong. I was looking to my audience 观众for approval.赞成 But they had never been to a lecture演讲 like this before either.
They didn't know what I was going to do, so they couldn't reassure me that I was doing it right.
What we have here is the reason that most people don't allow themselves to be creative in public, because it's just too hard to do something new that doesn't give the chance to feel confident 确信的inside until long after. It's much easier to do things the way other people have taught you to do them. That way, other people already know what you're doing and can signal you that you're doing it okay. Kohut this "signalling发信号 to you that you're doing it okay," and also that you yourself are okay while doing it, the "mirroring" function that one person, or a group people provides to the self of the person acting.
Kohut's most important discovery was that the self requires other people's mirroring to function.
So he speaks in self psychology as follows: the self exists in a matrix母体、基质 of selfobjects.
A selfobject is somebody else, that is a person, who behaves in such a way that function as an extension of the self of someone. If even one person in that audience in 1981 had been able to function as extension of me and make me feel that I was teaching
psychology well by showing and analyzing the Hitchcock film, that one person would have been my selfobject, and my anxiety would have been so much less. But nobody could do that for me that day.
I was so surprised much later to learn how much people liked that seminar, and the tape was listened to over and over again by many people. But at the time, my self was lonely and anxious, because it could not experience the mirroring of anybody, When that happens, the little self will have spreading散布 anxiety and sometimes even rage.狂怒 It is so lonely!
Let me ask you if all you can relate 联系起来to that kind of self-experience of trying to function without mirroring, and if you know how subjectively painful that can be? I ask because that is one of the commonest ways we come to know the little s self.

Catherine 给所有人
自体-对象
Catherine 给所有人
another one

John Beebe 给所有人
Can everyone relate to my example enough to see, or feel, how the little s self is different from the ego.
Little s self John Beebe was in a state of chronic 慢性的、长期的anxiety for four hours of lecturing in 1981. Ego John Beebe had prepared very carefully and gave a perfect performance!
The ego was unconsciously competent to teach the seminar讨论会, even though it was a completely original, new way of teaching psychology at that time. But self John Beebe, meaning little s self John Beebe was terrified inside.
Have any of you had that experience?
Ego one thing, little s self quite another?
Talk to me!!
What part of me "needs" to hear from you?
Little s self, or ego?

工作人员给所有人
yes, it do happens, and seems to be happened a lot. from Sophie

John Beebe 给所有人
The truth is, it happens to all of us every day!!

主持人给所有人
mean that ego is more about the reality aspect, while the self is more about the internal feeling or unconciousness?

John Beebe 给所有人
Which person do you think John Beebe took to his psychotherapy, 'litte s' self or ego 。Actually, not quite. Because the ego, testing and functioning in reality, is often doing so more or less unconsciously, just as
lung breathes without our being aware that it is doing so. The ego deals with reality to some degree in an automatic way, based what it has learned to do. Once it has learned how to do something, the ego just does it. The self, on the other hand is not unconscious.

Suhang 给所有人
我小时候有一次爸妈不在家，我做了一锅饭，是想表现自己，结果等他们回来以后我没敢说是我做的，他们很奇怪为什么会有做好的饭，很害怕，就把饭倒了。到现在他们也不知道那是我干的事。

John Beebe 给所有人
I mean, again, the little s self. It is PREconscious, meaning that is felt, just as you said. Internal feeling is a pretty good way to describe self-experience, that is "little s" self experience. We feel uneasy, we feel insecure没有把握的, we feel shaky, we feel like we don't know what we are doing, or how others are feeling about what we're doing. All of those internal feelings belong to the little s self. The ego is simply doing what it agreed to do, in my case in 1981, show a movie and talk about it. And since I knew the movie very well, and had read much about Hitchcock, my "ego" was prepared. It was my little s self that didn't know whether it was good enough for other people.
In fact, it was better than most seminars. But my self didn't 'know' that, or rather, didn't feel that, because neither I nor my audience was quite sure what we were doing that day, even if it was interesting. So they had to reserve judgment and just experience the seminar, and I had to give it without any clear sense of mirroring.

主持人给所有人
that is to say , in your case, the seminar, actualy the ego had prepared well, however the little self had not prepared well for the seminar lecture

John Beebe 给所有人
Yes, and how could it prepare, when no one could tell me it would work, because no one had seen a seminar like this before. Two full hours of watching a film and a lunch before the professor taught the seminar anything?
Who could prepare me and reassure me that that would go okay? Do any of you remember the first time you kissed someone not a member of your family? I was scared the first time I held someone's hand!! On the other hand, I like the idea of "preparing the little s self'... sometimes I think that's what happens in psychotherapy. We talk much more from the little s self in psychotherapy, and we get confidence in doing that. Those 23 or 24 years with Joseph Henderson was a long preparation in relating to the world from my little s self, and I am able do that much better than before I went into psychotherapy.
I was just learning to use my ego in those years. Often an analysis is something that strengthens巩固 the little s self. But so is creative work, and teaching, and making paintings, and writing stories. They involve 包含、潜心于using the self and gaining 获得confidence in doing so. This involves risk-taking at a personal level. You have to risk letting other people see what your self is like. And psychotherapy enables you to practice练习、实践 by revealing 暴露your little s self to one other person,, the therapist. Does this begin to make sense to all of you?
The therapist is a selfobject to the developing self of the patient. The therapist is someone who is used an extension

主持人给所有人
yes ,so vivid example from reality life

John Beebe 给所有人
of the self, providing如果、在……条件下 it with a vital 极重要的、必不可少的need, meaning specifically MIRRORING. That is why it is so important that the therapist PAY ATTENTION!!!
I feel you all understand, and I am going to trust that feeling, I have it in my little s self. I can't see you, but I can feel your mirroring. and of course you are 7000 miles away!!
But I know you know what I'm talking about, and it makes me feel good, confident,自信的 easy, I am now in tao.
In tao, meaning, I am a self that is now open to everything. No fear, much flow, and then a sense of access to something much larger than just my self experience. I can feel the larger aspect方面 of being human, and I hope you can too.
If we can feel that together, then maybe right now as you behave a selfobject to me and I behave a selfobject to you by describing描述 experiences of mine that mirror experiences of yours, we might have a shared little s self experience, and through that the great mystery that makes psychotherapy so exciting
through that shared little s self, we start to experience the larger energy of the big S self. The big S self is the energy source for the creativity, autonomy,自治 purposiveness目的性, and aliveness of the big S Self which can flow through us once we have a little s self that feel safe and open to the larger experience of what it is to be human. In other words the little s self is the place of access to the big S self.
The little s self lies between ego, which is automatic and in many ways unconscious, and Self, which is in many ways of new consciousness. This is not the way Jung teaches it, when he says the ego is conscious and the Self is unconscious. But it is truer to experience that the ego functions automatically, whereas the Self is a great new infusion 注入物、灌输of consciousness. We certainly experience this when we sleep, and our Self gives us such vivid and exciting令人兴奋的 and varied各式各样的 dreams. The ego had no idea there could be all that in the mind. The ego treats the mind as an instrument.仪器 The Self is much more than an instrument, it is a whole new way of seeing and feeling the world. The little s self lies between ego and Self, as a place of felt experience, a place of anxiety, and sometimes of relief from anxiety, that when it is relaxed and open enough, those days or moments within a day when someone can say, I am myself right now, can open us up to, let us gain "access" to the astonishing renewing energy of the archetypal big S Self.
For these reasons, I need three terms术语, ego, self, and Self to explain how I cope对付 with, experience, and transcend the uncertainties of life.

Over the week try to notice the difference between ego, little s self, and big s Self!

继续上一次的阐述：
John在这次的阐述中非常清晰并着重谈了关于小写s self的概念，以及这一概念在分析工作中的重要作用。这一点并没有特别谈到过，因此对我们的实际工作具有非常重要的意义。也对我们认识自己有非常重要的意义。正如John所说，当self被我们认识了的时候，Self才会更好地被我们感知，并与我们的自我ego建立联系。

John Beebe 给所有人
My idea is that it is the Kohut litte s "self" that enables the person to access and contain the experience of the big S "Self"
Kohut's self is the little "s" self
Jung's Self is the big "S" Self
The ego is something else different from either of these.
The ego is just the executive using various defensive and marketing strategies like the CEO of a business or the President of a country. A great deal of the ego's functioning is automatic and bureaucratic, and involves a compromise between conscience and desires for gain. The psychological subject is not the ego, but the self/Self connection. That's what a therapist looks at. My idea is that it is the Kohut little s "self" that enables a person to access and contain the experience of the big S "Self"
Three terms therefore are needed: ego, self, and Self. ego is the everyday executive conscious, self provides a kind of "floor"for the ego, a backing of security (or a background of insecurity), and Self is the ultimate energy source. the middle term "self" refers to a region of experience characterized by stong feelings, either a feeling of well being or spreading anxiety, anger, and depression.
People usually come to therapy when their little s self experience has become too unpleasant.
Very quickly in an effective therapy, the therapist becomes a "selfojbect" to the patient, the one person who knows how to make the person feel better. As long as that happens, the patient is willing to come back to therapy. If the patient is left feeling much worse, the patient is very likely to terminate the therapy. How does a therapist make a patient feel better in an ethical therapy? By providing the right kind of support to the little s self of the patient.
What is the right kind of support?
The right kind of support involves for what the patient is experiencing, and integrity in what is said to the patient.
That is because the patient's little 's' self has a need to be mirrored (seen, understood) AND a need to feel the person talking to him or her actually STANDS FOR SOMETHING and is not just saying what the patient wants to hear.
Kohut calls these two needs of the little s self the mirroring need and the idealizing need.
Someone to see us, someone to look up to--those are the basic needs of the little s self.
A good enough therapist meets both needs.
an analytic therapist is also sensitive to the times when the patient feels those needs are NOT being met. At such times, the patient is anxious, angry, or depressed by the therapy, and feels not being well cared for by the therapist. The analytic therapist makes those times of disappointment something that can be discussed in the therapy。The discussion of the patient's disappointment gives the therapist a real chance to show empathy for the patient's self.
If my patient starts to feel depressed, or angry, or anxious, I am able to see what I have done to let the patient's little "s" self down. That enables the patient to accept the experiences of the little s self as having a basis in reality, and thus gives the patient a reason to take the little s self more seriously.
The patient who is able to feel and listen to the little s self has not just a psyche, there is now a "person in the psyche."
The patient becomes a tzu, to use a Chinese word.
The patient becomes a person whose self experience matters!

主持人给所有人
子

John Beebe 给所有人
Current pinyin for tzu is zi 。A person who has a strong enough little s self will be able to experience the big S self. This will turn up in dreams, insights
and a greater objectivity in dealing with reality than we get from just the ego.
Jung writes a great deal about the experiences of the Self that he had, and that his patients have. But he doesn't tell us very much about the strong little s self that enables them to receive and trust and contain those experiences.
Yet in a therapy, that's what a therapist is working session to strengthen, the little s self and the reason that it is the only way the big S self is truly available to do change the psyche. There has to be a person to listen to the big S self, and not every bod is that kind of person until work has been done on the little s self.
Ego development is simply not enough.

Sophie 给所有人
What is selfobject?

John Beebe 给所有人
This is Kohut's term for the someone, like the therapist, or a parent, or a teacher, or a partner in life, who is used as an object by the self of the person.
In other words it is someone who is used as an extension of the self of the person.
Thus the self of the person becomes continuous with the object. The consequence is that the selfobject is likely to feel the little s self of the person using him as if it were his own self experience. An emotional continuum has been created. That is why Kohut writes the word selfobject without a hyphen. It is not a self-object, it is a selfobject, because self and
object are sharing the experience of being a little "s" self. Every mother has this with a small infant. She feels her infant's distresses and victories as an emerging "self" as if they were own self experiences, which in a way they are, because she is her baby's selfobject. This is the experience that is recreated in analytic therapy, where the "baby" is the emerging self of the patient, and the "mother" is the therapist making sure the emerging self of the patient gets the
things it needs to grow. The most important of those things are 1. empathy 2. integrity 3. a sharing of self-experience as an alter ego, another person who knows what it is to go through the ups and downs of psychological development. If the patient gets these three things from the therapist, the patient's self will have all it needs to grow. That's all that's needed to make sure there is a person benefitting from the analysis.
That is very different from just having a patient, you make it clear that you realize you have a PERSON under your care, that is, someone with a little s self whose self-experience matters to you.
But you also make a space to hear what the little s self is getting from the big S self, once it is strong enough to contain and receive that experience.
NOW, HOW ABOUT SOME DISCUSSION FROM ALL OF YOU. DOES THIS MODEL SPEAK TO YOUR EXPERIENCE AS THERAPISTS OR PATIENTS?

Catherine 给所有人
what is the meaning of alter ego?

John Beebe 给所有人
An alter ego is another person reporting on having experienced very similar life experiences, or showing in other ways that he or she also knows what it is to be a person who has a little s self that sometime holds the personality together and sometimes fails to do so, and thus needs the attention and care of another person it can trust. This is the part of therapy where the therapist let's the patient see as a role model what it is like to try to listen to the experience of a little s self. It is an essential part of therapy.
So MIRRORING, BEHAVING WITH INTEGRITY, AND ADMITTING THAT ONE IS AN ALTER EGO is all part of being someone's selfobject. Failing to do those things, you will see the patient's self get anxious, depressed, or angry. The patient may or may not realize what their bad feelings mean, but they are there.
Does any of this sound familiar to those of you who do therapy or have been patients in therapy?

蔡成后给所有人
as a patient, I get the three things I needed. I have a wonderful therapist. I'm fortunate!

John Beebe 给所有人
How does your little s self feel when you get them, and what you can say about it when it is getting what it needs?

蔡成后给所有人
happy

John Beebe 给所有人
In other words, tell me about the little s self when its happy, as when we have a therapist who meets the needs of the self.

蔡成后给所有人
being undertood

John Beebe 给所有人
The little self when it functions well provides the personality with three things too. These things are:
1. COHESION (we become a coherent personality, with an ongoing narrative, like a good novel we don't want to stop reading, our life unfolds as a continuity, in which we stay the same person, but keep growing in consciousness and maturity.
2. AFFECTIVE COLORATION (this is the sign that we are in touch with our feelings. Our personality has color, it is not drab, gray or flat. People recognize an individual personality, and we can access the archetypal affects coming from the Big S Self.
These are INTEREST, JOY, SHAME/CONTEMPT, SURPRISE, ANGER, and other very basic emotions. They give a personality COLOR.
3. TEMPORAL STABILITY (meaning the personality stays stable over time, we don't keep changing our identity and become first one and then another, and then a third person and so forth so that neither we nor anyone else can figure out who we really are.
All three of these things, COHESION, AFFECTIVE COLORATION, and TEMPORAL STABILITY are granted to the personality by a healthy functioning, little s self. And in fact they all represent the fact that the big S self is providing energy and wholeness to the little s self. They are signs that the big S self is being accessed by a healthy little s self.
COHESION comes from the fact that the Self provides essential organization to the self (this is symbolized by the mandala).
AFFECTIVE COLORATON comes from the fact that the Self has a system of archetypal affects, basic emotions hard-wired in the human
TEMPORAL STABILITY is provided by the fact that as an archetype the Self is somewhat independent of what happensas a result of education, social experience,and even trauma.
The things that enable the little s to knit a personality together and give it its aliveness, in other words its cohesion, affective coloration, and temporal stability,
all stem from the big S self. A healthy little s self, perhaps one restored to function by a good enough therapy, is able to access and use the energy of the big S self. And its that energy from the big S self that enables the little s self to give the personality its cohesion, stability, and continuity over time as a PERSONality.
Once there is a person, the person can use their ego more effectively. Why is that?
It's an ego that listens to its feelings and dreams, and thus gets the wisdom of the psyche. Also the person with a healthy little s self will have MORALE. Will have HOPE. Will have ENERGY. To have an ego but no energy to use it is one way of saying that a person is depressed.
What does the ego when it is supported by a self that is turn supported by the Self.
The ego is able to be effective in the world, using everything it has learned, without getting inflated.
It is an ego that can learn from experience, and that can individuate. It is much more situation-aware, has a strong identity, and a capacity to hold a tension of opposites.
This is not an ego that is functioning as if asleep. It is an ego supported by the consciousness of self and Self.
Hugely effective. Or as we say, a conscious ego. Part of that consciousness involves becoming aware of one's psychological type and its strengths and limitations. It is an ego is not destroyed by shame or guilt but can have both emotions and still have what is called self esteem. That's because such an ego respects the little self and the big S self and therefore doesn't assume it is always right 。Such an ego has begun to move beyond the hero myth into a recogntion of its place in a larger personality landscape, very like the small human figures in the large, long landscape paintings that hang in the Shanghai
Museum of Art.
Such an ego can listen to the egos, selfs, and Selfs of other people, because it doesn't assume it is the center of existence. Most important, such an ego doesn't only learn from educational institutions and training programs, but can LEARN FROM EXPERIENC
One way of describing what happens in any analysis (according to the Kleinian Hinselwood) is that we try to learn from experience and we analyze what keeps us from being able to learn from experience. What keeps us from being able to do so is some damage to the little s self that keeps the ego from being open and the Self from being availabl。If the ego is open and the Self is available, anyone can learn all they need from experience, and can avail themselves of a self object who can make sure they realize what they have learned.
But when the ego isn't open and the Self isn't available, the personality is shut down, and we have to work on the little s self to enable it to work as it should.

Tzu Zi personal subjectivity is the ego. the ego is also the center of animal experience, the body.

Anne, the Mother of the Virgin Mary, is the Self, the archetype in the deep background. Mary is the selfobject of Jesus, the self. And the Lamb is the ego, held by the self, which is capable now of restraint and peaceful behavior rather than inflated aggression and appetite and sexuality. This painting, from 15th century Italy, painted by Leonardo da Vinci, suggests the harmony of a personality that has Self, selfobject and self, and a relatively docile, contained ego as a result. What a world this would be if more people had egos with this much personality support from Self, selfobject, and self!!
The feminine emphasis seems to me show the degree to which psyche, or soul, has to be feminine, that is caring and receptive, mirroring and with integrity, to support the self and the ego.

工作人员给所有人
it's such beautiful picture

John Beebe 给所有人
Isn't this a beautiful picture of what I have been talking about all day. Following the diagonal in the painting from upper center to lower right of the image, we have Great Mother (Self), Mother (selfobject), son (self), and ego (animal)-- all (to be
Chinese now) in TAO!

内蒙古心理网&Q'R~v(V|IUI

www.nmgpsy.com内蒙古心理网